Television interview of Billy Graham by Robert Schuller. Part I, an approximately 7-minute-long broadcast in Southern California on Saturday, May 31, 1997 The following is an exact tanscript* of an excerpt close to the end of this broadcast.

Schuller: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

Graham: Well, Christianity and being a true believeryou know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival, that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.

Schuller: What, what I hear you saying that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?

Graham: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.

Schuller: [R. S. trips over his tongue for a moment, his face beaming, then says] I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

Graham: There is. There definitely is.

Schuller: You knew .... Fulton Sheen. You knew these men. Your comments on both of these men [Fulton Sheen and Norman V. Peale].

Graham: The primary way of communicating is to live the life, let people see that you're living what you proclaim.... [comments on his friendship and conversations with Fulton Sheen] I lost a very dear friend, and since that time, the whole relationship between me and my work, and you and your work, and the Roman Catholic Church has changed. They open their arms to welcome us and we have the support of the Catholic Church almost everywhere we go. And I think that we must come to the place where we keep our eyes on Jesus Christ, not on what denomination or what church or what group we belong to.

Billy Graham's first great city-wide evangelistic campaign was held in Los Angeles in 1949. At that time he made a public promise that he would never have any theological modernists (theological liberals) on his platform. Dr. Graham's first evangelistic campaign in England was held in the summer of 1954. On that tour he was accompanied by Dr. John Sutherland Bonnell, the pastor of the First Presbyterian Church in New York City. Dr. Bonnell was also the president of the Ministerial Association of New York City, which was dominated by modernist ministers and churches. On Dr. Graham's British tour Bonnell was working to persuade him to hold a campaign in New York in 1956 under the auspices of the liberal Ministerial Association. During that time a group of Bible-believing pastors and laymen sent Dr. Graham in England a telegram asking him to hold an evangelistic series in New York City sponsored by "a committee of twice-born men."

On his return to the States Dr. Graham announced that he would come to New York in 1956 sponsored by the Ministerial Association of New York City. The committee of Bible-believing men sent a delegation to Dr. Graham begging him not to confuse the line between the gospel of grace and the false gospel of the modernist churches represented in the Ministerial Association. Graham turned a deaf ear to them, and came to New York with the requirement that all churches should be invited to participate in the campaign. In that campaign, the Billy Graham Association trained counselors sent from all sorts of churches, including the Roman Catholic Church. The policy was established of directing each inquirer during the campaign to his or her home church. Some Protestants were sent to modernist churches. Roman Catholics were directed back to the priest of the Roman church nearest to their home address. This policy of cooperation with the Roman Church continues to this day.

Dr. Graham has received honors from Roman Catholic circles, including an honorary degree from a Catholic college. In his last campaign in the British Isles, two leading prelates in the Roman Catholic Church in England sent out pastoral letters encouraging Catholics to attend the Graham meetings. One of these prelates explained to his parishioners that "Billy Graham knows our limits." That is, the Roman Church can count on him not to touch on any theological doctrines that contradict official Romanist teachings. Thus Dr. Graham will not explain that a sinner trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and eternal life must give up any trust he might have in any other object of faith; that he or she must trust in the Person, Jesus Christ, and Him alone, not trusting in Mary or saints, rejecting any trust in the sinner's good works or religious observances, relying totally on His perfect work of redemption, a substitutionary atonement on the cross, taking the sinner's place under the judgment of God and receiving in His body the total punishment for sin that the sinner deserves, and through repentance and faith receive the perfect righteousness of Christ, imputed by God to the believer, that makes the sinner forever acceptable to a holy God, and immediately a possessor of the gift of eternal life that cannot be forfeited or lost, kept by the power of God throughout all eternity. If Billy Graham were to preach this biblical and complete doctrine of salvation, he would at once lose the support of the Roman Catholic leaders. Multitudes of Roman Catholics would be warned and frightened from attending Billy Graham meetings.

The doctrine that Dr. Graham expressed to Dr. Schuller is exactly what the Pope and the Ecumenical Institute in Rome have been teaching for years. This is the idea that any pagan, practicing idolatrous worship, having no slightest knowledge of the Bible, the gospel of grace, or the Person and name and redeeming work of Jesus Christ-if he is a "good person" and if he is sincere in whatever he may believe is automatically "redeemed by the blood of Christ." This false doctrine of salvation was clearly and explicitly asserted and defended in debate about four years ago on radio stations KABC and KBRT by Father Vivian Benlima, then Director of the Office for Ecumenical and Interdenominational Affairs of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, who just returned from a year's study at the Ecumenical Institute. It is the official teaching of the Roman Church.

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association was the primary force for the founding of the Lausanne World Evangelism Conferences back in the 1980s. Especially in recent years these conferences have called on all churches, including the modernist ecumenical churches of the World Council of Churches and the Roman Catholic Church to cooperate with the evangelical churches in evangelizing the world for Christ. At Amsterdam '86, billed as a "school for evangelists" and sponsored by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Graham revealed his ecumenical, inclusivist approach to worldwide evangelism. In the final press conference, Dr. Graham was asked by Dennis Costella, a news correspondent for Foundation magazine, how he could justify this melding together of such a disparate crowd of theologically disunited religious groups. Dr. Graham responded, "Evangelism is about the only word we can unite on. ... Our methods would be different and there would be debates over even the message sometimes, but there is no debate over the fact that we need to evangelize. ... I think there is an ecumenicity here that cannot [be gotten] under any other umbrella." Therefore, he averred, all the churches must be willing to disagree even on the question of what the Christian message to the world is.

More recently, in the spring of 1994, a group of both evangelical and Roman Catholic leaders signed a document called "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" (ECT). This document asserts that there is one Church (including both Protestant and Roman churches), that, therefore, they must work together in evangelizing the world for Christ, and agree that there will be no sheep-stealing, that is, proselytizing of members of one church to depart and join another church. ECT dismayed multitudes of Christians and elicited vigorous criticism from many Christian circles.

There can be little question that Dr. Billy Graham during almost forty years laid the major foundation for ETC. Where will the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association go in the future? Will the leadership that succeeds the founder continue down the same perilous path of compromising and diluting biblical truth until we arrive at total syncretism and universalism? May God forbid and warn His people!

* Robert E. Kofahl, PhD,, and the, Rev. Harold L. Webb certify the accuracy of the transcripts from Parts I and II, respectively, of the televised interview of Dr. Billy Graham by Dr. Robert Schuller

Reprinted by permission from FOUNDATION A Magazine of Biblical Fundamentalism, May-June 1997

Most cities of any significant population have numerous places of worship. Our city is approximately 200,000 with 60 Baptist churches (more or less) of some type. The number of all other denominations is many times that number. Of course the main object of the true church is to reach the lost for Christ directed by His command. (Matt. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15,16) Others have as their objective increasing attendance for reasons of prominence in the city to pastoral positional promotion. As a result various activities are brought to the attention of local press coverage to advertise what various religious organizations have to offer.

Bake sales, barbequed sirloin, and bacon sandwiches, etc. have been methods used for some time to raise funds for various ministries(?) of the church. The end justifies the means syndrome dominates regardless whether it is Scriptural or not. This is nothing new although it has surfaced more prominently in the past twenty years. It has almost become a doctrinal practice in some churches.

Advertisement of church related activities now has a new twist from an old source, the world, the flesh, and the devil. Church and spiritual education has been elevated(?) from the joy of spiritual education to fun to attend. The information of what is offered will surely draw more attention with proper press coverage. A photograph appeared in the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal (LAJ), 8/22/99, with this heading: "Good, not so clean fun." Two boys whose names were given were mud wrestling while others looked on who had obviously been involved. This was called a "Mud Fest" and the event was "sponsored by Lubbock churches" according to the note below the photo. This activity also "featured mud volley-ball, mud football and several other slippery games." I know one church that did not, does not, and will not sponsor such projects.

According to the LAJ photo editor the Christian Life Assembly of God was the sponsoring church joined by four other Assembly of God churches in Lubbock. A call to the youth minister of the church revealed about 200 attended this event. The competition was held on their church property near their soft-ball field. Anyone who wanted to attend would certainly be welcomed. Likely this type of "Not so clean fun" will spread to other congregations as a repeat performance is already in the making for next year. If past observations hold true this type of getting the youth involved in "church activity" will spread rapidly to other churches in town. It seems the church that accepts the sloppiest appearance, the dirtiest activity, the daintiest banquet, and the shortest worship service is the place to join. This is what many are seeking and when invited to attend worship services they ask, "What do you have for our youth?" Few are seeking God honoring preaching and worship. A headline just below but not associated with the above picture stated: "Court: Thou shalt not pray - Schools: We may." The following article covered the controversy concerning students praying before football games, etc. The answer seems to be, move the fun and games under the jurisdiction of the church and ask God's blessing on a "Mud Fest."

Higher Christian(?) education is also motivated to pattern after the world. The LAJ, 8/25/99, Pg. 1, Sec. B, photographed activities during freshman orientation week at Lubbock Christian University. Young men and women in alternated positions on their backs with their posteriors touching and bare legs extended in the air passed water balloons with their bare feet one to the other. Of course the LAJ photographer focused on the posterior of the young woman. To say this is decent, innocent activity is stretching the truth to the breaking point and indecent to the core.

All this under the pretense of Christian activity. Many parents send their young people to acquire Christian higher education trusting they will be taught Christian principles and activities. Some Christian Universities host dances and allow beer to be sold on their campuses. There was a time when Christian education and church activity was not a mud-fest, body performance, or drinking party. Pray that God will bring our nation back to appropriate appearance and proper participation in Christian apparel and activity. This can only be accomplished when pastors and churches steadfastly preach the unalterable Gospel of Christ and live by Bible directed principles.

The Pope and apostate Protestants continue to deny the plain doctrines of the Bible. The Bible so clearly declares the doctrine of the fire of hell, that we can conclude that they are totally ignorant of the Bible, or that they do not believe what it teaches. One thing is certain, and that is that hell is a real place and that it has plenty of fire.

We have received a great deal of information on the Pope's denial of hell in recent days, and we will quote some of those reports in this article. We shall also quote this same heresy being spoken by Protestant people who claim among all things to be Evangelicals.

"Hell is not a punishment imposed externally by God" he said (Pope) last week, "but the condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in life. More than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. So eternal damnation is not God's work, but is actually our own doing." (The Calgary Sun, 8-1-99) This was also quoted from Reuters, along with this additional quote. The Pope described hell instead as "the pain, frustration and emptiness of life without God." (The Toronto Star, 7-29-99)

Both of the above sources said that a week before the Pope had denied the reality of heaven being a place. We also quote the following, "The Pope last week lent his authority to the process. Days after a leading Jesuit magazine reiterated that hell was empty of fire and demons, the Pope told pilgrims in Rome that heaven was neither an actual location nor an abstract concept, but an ineffable `union with God.' Paradise, `is not an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living and personal relationship of unity with the Holy Trinity,' he said, `it is important to always maintain a certain moderation in describing these `ultimate realities' as any description of them is always inadequate.'" (The Sunday Telegraph 7-25-99)

Not only has a Jesuit magazine endorsed the Pope's idea, but others of the Roman Catholic faith are rallying to support the Pope. Sister Lavinia Byrne, a Roman Catholic nun and regular on Radio 4's Thought For the Day said: "I Think the Pope is bang on the money. In a non-literate society people had to have pictures, but we now live in a non-pictorial age where people have a great deal of psychological insight." (The Sunday Telegraph 7-25-99)

Now that the Pope has denied the reality of heaven and hell, what will he do with the profitable doctrine of purgatory? This has been a profitable doctrine since it generates large amounts of cash for the priests and the Roman Catholic Church. This is especially true among the undeveloped countries where people live in absolute ignorance of the teaching of the Bible. Millions of people have been paying the priests to pray their loved ones out of purgatory. I have heard and read the testimony of a number of ex-Catholics that paid the priest many times to get the priest to pray their loved one out of purgatory. Then they would tell that Catholic that their loved one was almost out of purgatory, and if they would give some more money they could get that loved one out. This is heresy and the same as highway robbery!

Some of our non-Catholic readers may not know what purgatory is to the Catholics. "In Roman Catholic theology, a state or place in which those who have died in the grace of God expiate their sins by suffering." (Webster's Unabridged Dictionary). Please note that even those who die in the grace of God must go to purgatory to "expiate their sins by suffering." According to Webster's Dictionary, expiate means: "to make satisfaction or atonement ... to atone for; to make amends for (wrongdoing or guilt); to pay the penalty of." Therefore we must say that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross was not sufficient to satisfy God, according to Catholic doctrine. This is plain heresy, and there is no other way we could describe it.

The word purgatory come from the word purge which means to empty or cleanse. A person who has repented of sin and truly trusted in Christ as Saviour needs no place such as purgatory, because their sins have already been purged by Christ on the cross. "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:3). That statement from God's word should convince anyone who is saved, that purgatory would never be needed. The saved person needs no further redemption. It was provided at the cross. Paul reveals how and when we were redeemed from our sins. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3).

The person saved by the grace of God needs no further redemption, and if they did, it could not be obtained by using silver or gold to pay the priest to pray one out. "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (I Peter 1:18-19).

According to the dictionary, the very purpose of purgatory is for the person to, "expiate their sins by suffering." This is a denial of the expiatory work of Christ on the cross. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Gal. 3:13). "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:4-6).

If hell is not a place with fire, and heaven is not a real place, how can the Catholic Church continue to declare the doctrine of purgatory? I doubt if the Pope will ever renounce purgatory, but if he ever does, it will not be made known to those ignorant masses of Catholics who are paying for people to be delivered from purgatory.

The writer of an article in The Toronto Star, perhaps with tongue in cheek wrote the following:

"Purgatory was the place you went if you weren't good enough for Heaven or bad enough for Hell. It was for those who piled up venial sins, was pretty near as hot as Hades and you could expect to be cooling your scorching heels there a good while. Rather as if you'd applied for a job and they said there were no openings but they'd keep your resume on file.

"And that's where I feel conned. Those of us still in the land of the living could try to get the souls of our dearly departed early release by such means as praying, gathering indulgences, giving alms in their names.

"In many parishes, there was even a fixed rate of exchange: Three hundred days off for saying grace before meals; three years for blessing yourself with the sign of the cross; seven for using holy water. That may have been just a drop in the bucket when your loved ones were doing an indefinite sentence, in Purgatory, but at least it was something. Now to learn it was all piety under false pretenses, time wasted when we could have been riding our bikes, well, that hurts." (The Toronto Star, 7-31-99)

According to the Baptist Press (SBC), two outstanding leaders have denounced the "no hell" doctrine of the Pope. Paige Patterson, president of the Southern Baptist Convention and president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forrest, NC, had some interesting things to say about the Pope's denial of the reality of the fires of hell. We quote the following from Baptist Press.

"Patterson took issue with statements made by Pope John Paul II which he said undermine biblical teaching that heaven and hell are physical places. The Pope has asserted that hell `is not punishment imposed externally by God, but the condition resulting from attitudes imposed externally by God, but the condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life.'

"Patterson said the Pope did `not do away with the doctrine of eternal punishment, but in embarrassment [sought] to sweep it under the rug and make it as little effective as possible.'" (Baptist Press)

The BP also released a report by R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY. We quote the following from that report.

"In a recent address, the Pope `denied heaven and hell were physical places and seemed to reverse nearly 2,000 years of Christian teaching' Mohler wrote in an article titled, `Should we lose the fear of Hell? Pope redefines the doctrine'" (Baptist Press).

Mohler also had some more strong words in which he disagreed with the Pope's doctrine of heaven and hell.

I would like to know when Paige Patterson and Albert Mohler, Jr., will denounce the doctrine of Billy Graham on hell. I commend them for exposing the error of the Pope, but they need to apply the same judgment on Billy Graham on the subject of the fires of hell.

I know that some of you super pious souls are going to doubt what I am saying, and you are going to write to Billy Graham and ask him if he really denies the fire of a place called hell. You will not receive an answer from him, but someone on his staff will write and assure you that Graham did not say such a thing. You will believe their lies, instead of believing what I am about to write. Billy Graham wrote the following statement.

"The existence of hell indicates that man has freedom of choice. You have a choicethe broad road or the narrow road. Jesus used three words to describe the place or condition that lies at the end of the broad road. One is `fire.' Jesus told the story about the rich man who went to hell and asked that Lazarus might dip the tip of his finger in the water and cool the rich man's tongue. Could it be that the fire Jesus talked about is an eternal search for God that is never quenched. That indeed, would be hell; to be away from God forever, separate from his presence.

"Jesus use another word, `darkness.' The Bible says `God is light.' The Apostle Peter wrote that `God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom.' What does that mean? There again, God is light. Darkness is separation from God.

"The third word Jesus used is `death.' God is life. Hell is death to the spirit, death to the soul, separation from God. The Scripture speaks this as the second death." (DECISION, April 1972, page 4)

I have that copy of DECISION before me as I write. This is heresy just the same as the statements by the Pope. When will Albert Mohler denounce this heresy by Graham? He allowed a large number of students of the Seminary to travel to Indianapolis to act as counselors in the recent Billy Graham Crusade. (We urge our readers to read the article on Billy Graham found in this issue of the Plains Baptist Challenger. In this article you can read of further heresy on the part of Billy Graham, which he expressed on a Robert Schuller television broadcast.)

Graham also expressed the same heretical beliefs which were quoted in Orlando Sentinel, Orlando, Florida, April 10, 1983. He also said the same thing at the International Conference for Itinerant Evangelists at Amsterdam, Netherlands in 1983.

There was a time that fundamentalists almost totally denounced the false doctrine and practice of Billy Graham. The old heads are gone now, and the younger generations either support Graham, or remain silent. Where are the likes of R. T. Ketcham, Noel Smith, Bob Jones, Sr., John R. Rice and a host of other professing fundamentalists today?

Jesus talked more about hell than He did heaven. Anyone can plainly see that He taught that hell was a real place with real fire, which would last forever.

The rich man in hell testified that there was real fire in hell, and he said nothing about his hoping that he would ever escape it. "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame". (Luke 16:23-24). The Pope and Billy Graham must not believe what Jesus said. According to them, poor Jesus was just painting a false picture simply, to scare the ignorant people. What blasphemy against the Holy Bible and our Holy Saviour!!

John the Baptist said that the fire was unquenchable, so it never could be put out. "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable". (Luke 3:17).

Jesus said that the fire of hell could never be quenched. In fact he said so three times in one day. The words of our perfect Saviour are good enough for me, but apparently the Pope and Billy do not accept what he said. "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44).

Listen again to the words of Christ about fire in hell. "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matt. 5:22). "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" (Matt. 18:9)

Jesus also said that this fire was everlasting. "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire" (Matt. 18:8). "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). If lost sinners will not be in a hell with fire, then this must mean that the devil will not suffer hell fire. If we take Billy Graham's idea, then the devil and his angels will be searching for God through all eternity. Won't that be wonderful, the devil searching for God. I have news for Mr. Graham. Sinners never have sought to find God, and they never will.

Our Saviour also said that there will be a furnace of fire. "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13:41-42). "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13:49-50).

If there is no everlasting fire, can there be an everlasting heaven? "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). Those who contend that there is no everlasting fire of hell have trapped themselves, where if they are honest, they will have to admit there can be no eternal life in heaven.

Jesus Christ used the same Greek word to speak of "everlasting" punishment, and "eternal" life in heaven. Both "everlasting" and "eternal" come from Strong's word #166. It is "aionios" and is pronounced "ahee-o'-nee-os." This word is translated "eternal" 42 time, and "everlasting" 25 times. This word is translated both as eternal and everlasting in Matthew 25:46. So it has the same meaning when it speaks of heaven and hell. Strong's Concordance gives this definition for "aionios:" "(1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be (2) without beginning (3) without end, never to cease, everlasting."

This does away with all the false teaching by the Pope and Billy Graham. The Pope seems to realize so he has altered the Biblical teaching on the subject of heaven and hell. I know that Graham has effectively done away with the true doctrine of how to get to heaven. He is now teaching that people without a Bible, without the gospel, and without the name of Christ, can go to heaven. That is completely false. (See the article on Billy Graham starting on page 1 of this issue of The Plains Baptist Challenger.)

Billy Graham was on the Larry King show, and King is asking him about Paradise, where Graham says he is going. Here is what was said, as reported by FOUNDATION.

"KING: All right. You'll meet Jesus and then what will it be like? What will paradise be like?

"GRAHAM: It's going to be like paradise. It'll be - everything that you ever wanted for happiness will be there. People say that the Bible teaches there's no sex in Heaven. If sex is necessary for our happiness and fulfillment, it'll be there. And then, if certain other things that we think are pleasurable will be there." (FOUNDATION, January-February 1999).

The writer for FOUNDATION had this to say about Graham's above statement. "Once again, Graham's theology is completely contrary to Scripture. God's Word never teaches that whatever is necessary for physical human happiness will be the believer's lot in heaven. On the contrary, the believer will rejoice in praising God and fulfilling His will, not the desired will of

the individual. The believer's physical body, while on the earth, is still wrestling with the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life that are certainly pleasurable to the earthly saint. But heaven will be a place where the believer will fulfill the will of the Savior and honor and glorify Him throughout all eternity. To give the impression that heaven will be a type of hedonistic paradise is dangerous, false theology." To which this Editor agrees. To teach that heaven will be a sexual paradise is false doctrine. If Graham could prove this there might be a lot of people lined up and wanting to go. Especially if he could prove that the lost will have no sexual pleasure. (Clinton would probably be the first one in line to want to go to heaven.)

We do not have the space to list all of the so-called Evangelical preachers who deny an eternal hell. It is not a popular doctrine, so they have retreated completely on the doctrine of hell.

You will hear very few if any sermons on the subject of hell, even those who claim to be Evangelicals or Fundamentalists. Preachers who once preached hell hot, heavy, and frequent have largely abandoned the mention of hell. They have done this, either because they no longer believe in hell, or they are afraid that it will offend some sensitive sinful soul. I was saved the very night I heard a hot sermon on hell. Please don't tell me that I only was scared into making an empty profession, because I have a salvation that has lasted over an half of a century, and which will last for eternity. Those who have stopped preaching on the subject of hell are continuing to yield to the onslaught of modernism, new-evangelicalism, psychology, cults, and other assorted heresies. May God help preachers from soft peddling the doctrine of hell!!

The last few decades have brought about a drastic change in the area of worship. There has been since the fall of man worship of the true God and the duplicate worship of false gods. This is true in method, manner, and music. Cain's murder of Abel was prompted because of the difference in their method of worshiping the God of Heaven. Abel's worship was pleasing to God and Cain's was unacceptable. Since that time there has been a progressive effort to worship in a manner that appeals to the flesh disregarding the approval of God. In the genealogy of Cain musical instruments were first introduced as well as multiple marriages. The second murder recorded in the Bible was also in the lineage of Cain.

This in no way implies that music, multiple marriage, and murder are connected in an inseparable manner. Yet it cannot be ignored that musical instruments had a powerful impact in the lives of Cain's offspring.

There is also evidence that the people of God worshiped Him by singing and with musical instruments. Moses led Israel in singing at the crossing of the Red Sea. Miriam led the women with a timbrel in her hand in these worshipful words, "Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously." (Exo. 15) In both instances the spirit of the singing and music was directed to the glory of God.

The women were playing and singing at the return of King Saul and David after their victory over the Philistines. (1 Sam. 18:6) Israel definitely used instruments accompanied by singing in their worship to God. Most of the Psalms are addressed to certain musicians to bring glory to the God they worshiped. These instances were also directly associated with God honoring words and actions.

The institution of the Lord's Supper in remembrance of the sacrifice of His body and blood for sinners was concluded by singing a hymn. (Matt. 26:30; Mk. 14:26) Paul and Silas prayed and sang praises to God after being beaten for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their praying and singing was heard by the other prisoners and their keeper. (Acts 16) Every instance here given is without doubt in true worship of the God of Heaven and the Lord Jesus Christ. The holiness of God is exclusively the theme of their singing.

Many other instances can be given of bringing honor and glory to God by music and singing. Even the sound of harps and singing a new song is noted in the Revelation of the Lamb of God. (Rev. 14) Holy and worshipful music and singing has always been acceptable to the Lord and without doubt will be one of the involvements of the saved in heaven.

For years "church" music was limited to the worshipful hymns that brought honor and glory to the Lord rather than lending recognition to the performers. Saints of the past, and not too distant past in some cases, often wept legitimate tears as they sang praises to God. When "Come ye sinners poor and needy," came from the heart of concerned church members for their lost loved ones and friends, their hearts were attentive to the Holy Spirit's convicting presence. It was then that "Just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me" motivated the searching of hearts. The saved remembered when they responded to the call of God and longed for others to do the same.

Because so many church goers have become acclimatized to the routine of regular church services the most prevailing thought in some minds is, "The invitation will soon be over if no one goes to the altar." Is it any wonder that many today are looking for something more "exciting" than a message challenging the hearers to holiness and sinners to salvation? Is it any wonder that Heaven and Hell are little more than a myth to many lost souls who will not heed the invitation to come to Christ?

Even though sinners are not coming to Christ through the preaching of the Gospel today as they once did does not imply that God has changed His mind about the method or the music used to reach the lost. The preaching of the Gospel of Christ is still the power of God unto salvation whether in message or music.

Humanism has made rapid and indisputable inroads into every area of American lives. Self-esteem was the cry of the psychoanalysis of Sigmund Freud. The self-esteem preaching of Robert Schuller is much the same. Freud called religion a sickness and Schuller and others are trying their best to prove it by their humanistic gospel. Along with their efforts to gather followers in their respective periods of time, each have aimed their attention to separating the youth from godly parental guidance. Freud's idea of religion was "a remarkable similarity between obsessive acts and religious practices or ritual." Psychiatrist Chester M. Pierce in his address to the Childhood International Education Seminar said this: "Every child in America entering school at the age of five is mentally ill because he comes to school with certain allegiances to our founding fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural being,..." [Emphasis added] ("In the Words of Wolves")

This type of psychological slime has found its release in the "obsessive acts" of CCM performers and calling it a "religious practice" in a church setting. Many churches today are planning every conceivable function to attract the world to church without disturbing their style of life. The majority of these social(?) events are to attract young people. The argument is that the lost do not feel comfortable in church where folks try to look their best and the preacher calls sin by its first name and heralds biblical separation. So something must be done, they say, to make the sinner feel `comfortable in church.' The vast majority leave such a comfortable setting as untroubled about their sin as when they came. The blind man, the Philippian jailor, the woman at the well, etc. certainly were anything but made comfortable in their various dilemmas.

I have alluded to the proper worship of God in music and singing. There has been a collapse in many churches, however, of God honoring music and singing. This brings me to the subject of so called Contemporary Christian Music.

I have used the word "plague" in the title and this sub-title because this is precisely what I believe Contemporary Christian Music to be to the church. The American Heritage Dictionary gives this definition of plague: "1. A pestilence, affliction, or calamity. 2. A cause for annoyance; nuisance. 3. A highly infectious, usually fatal epidemic disease." It gives the illustration of the deadly "bubonic plague."

Frankly I believe this definition of plague perfectly corresponds to the effect caused by CCM. It certainly is a pestilence (infectious disease) and has become so contagious that many churches are being infected. A disease that has afflicted (devastated) and caused calamity (spiritual hardship) in many once biblically and musically sound churches. The dividing of churches into age groups as the old, couples, singles, and young people, etc. has developed into separate services for certain age groups. One service with old hymns, another with CCM performers and there surely must be one service where only choruses are used. Bill Gather's popular hymnal(?) will fill the bill in some churches. (Once the young and old sang the same songs of Zion.) If this was confined to Protestant churches the scourge wouldn't be so disturbing. However, many once sound Baptist churches are falling into the trap of contemporary church styling. It begins with the "dumbing-down" in appearance and continues in the "giddy-gibberish" of acting and the "noisy- nuisance" of applauding. All in the name of worship.

One of the reasons CCM (that invites attention to the performers) is such a plague is that it has a "form of godliness but denies the power thereof." That is nothing short of apostasy. The idea prevails in CCM that the louder something is the more glory it brings to God. The prophets of Baal tried this in their encounter with Elijah and it did not work. (1 Kgs. 18) Neither will this noisy, chaotic, animation bring glory to the true God of Heaven. Although the crying of the worshipers of Baal did not awake him I'm not sure but that the god of this world is both awake and pleased with the gyrations, groaning, and gymnastics of CCM. Of one thing I am certain, Satan has a better understanding and approval of it than I.

There is little doubt in my mind that the majority of the members of churches and their pastors may disagree with my assessment of CCM. That does nothing to diminish the fact that each of us will give account to God for our every assessment and action. There are obviously a number of pastors and preachers who are either in accord with the above mentioned activities or they do not have the backbone to address the problem. Patterning worship services after the world is nothing short of Israel's sin of mixing their worship with the false gods of the land they conquered. God certainly is just as displeased with this generation of churches who implement unscriptural methods of worship as with the tribes of Israel mixing false worship with true worship.

The Lord's letter to the pastor of the church in Sardis revealed, "I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead." (Rev. 3:1) Obviously there was a lot going on at the Sardis church but much was void of spiritual life. Churches now are involved in every thing from mud wrestling to music warbling under the head of church activity and worship. This may well define too many churches today. (2 Kgs. 17:33) "They feared the LORD, and served their own gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence." Simply because something is sponsored by a "church" does not make it acceptable to the Lord. It must be scriptural, of the right spirit, and from a biblical source. CCM is sired by the flesh, blessed by the Devil, and hatched by the heat of worldly entertainers.

It has been said in my hearing: "But we must do something for the young people!" Let me ask this question in all sincerity of all those who know they are saved by grace through faith. Was it the practice of gimmickry or the preaching of the gospel that brought you to the knowledge your sin; of repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? It is the gospel of Christ that brings men to repentance. Both old and young of our nation need men who will: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (2 Tim. 4:2-4). Pastor/preacher are you praying or playing; evangelizing or entertaining? It does make a difference now and in eternity.

"Worse than infidelity, plainly visible in the church today, is the wave of feminism that is invading the pulpit," the Rev. Dr. I. M. Haldeman told his congregation yesterday in the Sunday morning services at the First Baptist Church, Broadway and Seventy-ninth Street. (New York City). Dr Haldeman preached his first sermon yesterday after an illness of five weeks. "Today teachings of infidelity are plainly evident in the church," Dr. Haldeman said. "But a thing to be feared even more than these teachings is the invasion of the pulpit by feminism that is now taking place. Feminism is that widespread disease that is putting women out of their place...It is not a question of brain, but a question of following the teachings of Christ. To bring a woman into the pulpit is to sin against the most holy of Christian institutions - the Holy Ghost...." (New York Times, March 21, 1927)

Dean Robinson, former Associate Pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church has accepted the call as Pastor of Liberty Baptist Church, Harrison, Arkansas. The Robinson family now lives in Harrison. We ask our readers to pray for Bro. Robinson and his family in their new ministry there. Liberty Baptist Church is an Independent Baptist Church formerly pastored by Bro. James Watt. Bro. Watt is now doing supply work, as well as serving as an interim pastor, in churches where they need help in getting a pastor.